Have you ever felt like you hit the wall? How did you get through it when you know stopping isn’s a long term solution. Nishita Tamuly joins the show and talks about what’s she has discovered about intention as a powerful force for overcoming burnout. She’s joined by the one. The only. Kaitlin Maud-Moon (horn sound effect here).
Find Kaitlin at: https://kaitlinmaud.com/ Kaitlin – sincere thanks for hosting this conversation.
But wait? Where the hell is Adam? He’s been working on a new show, In the Demo, all about the origins of the Millennial Myth. You can listen here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/in-the-demo/id1655565898. He’ll be back for the next episode and you’ll be hearing more from Kaitlin and maybe some other voices.
The Strategy Inside Everything is produced by me, Adam Pierno. If you like what you’ve heard, leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Actually, I have no idea if that helps, or if it’s ever done anybody any good. If you really want to help the show, and you like what you’ve heard, share it with someone else you think will dig it. That’s the best way to help the show and keep the conversation growing. If you have an idea, a question or want to push back, go to thatsnotaninsight.com where you can send me a message or leave me a voicemail that will be added to future shows. New music for The Strategy Inside Everything is by Luke Holizna, for more information on his music go to holizna.com. You can also support him by going to his Patreon at patreon.com/Holizna. For more information on me, you can go to AdamPierno.com To learn about my books, my speaking and my consulting practice. Thanks for listening.
Show notes:
0:02 Nishita’s career to date
6:36 The desire map and how it relates to goals
11:14 Dealing with emotional burnout
18:09 The power of writing in the artists way
24:57 The power of gentle actions
33:10 How burnout teaches us that we have finite energy
37:39 How to get support from others
42:24 The parallels between burnout and burnout from work
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Transcript here:
A P 0:02
This is The Strategy Inside Everything.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 0:04
I’m Kaitlin Maud-Moon. Hi, y’all. I’m back. Have you checked out In The Demo yet? What Adam and Farrah have been working on is amazing. And in the meantime, I’m excited to be guest hosting the strategy inside everything again. Today on the pod we have my dear friend and fellow strategist, Nishita, Tamuly joining us from the UK/ Hi Nishita.
Nishita Tamuly 0:36
Hey, Caitlin, I’m so so excited to be here. And honestly, so honored, he chose me for this top pick.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 0:43
Before we jump into our topic for the day, which I think everyone is going to be really excited about. Can you tell us a little bit about your career to date and how you got into strategy,
Nishita Tamuly 0:54
I do distinctly remember the moment of the aha moment where I was like, oh, you know what, I think I am a strategist. And this is cutting forward a little bit when I was doing my masters at NYU. And the program kind of allowed us to kind of like have day jobs while we kind of did night school. So I really just got my hands dirty in a lot of different lanes of strategy. So I tried like social strategy brand, see media strategy, and kind of like, just wanted to know what all of these different lanes were and kind of after having a good feel of different lanes, that’s when I realized that Oh, actually, strategy is a mindset. And that’s just very innate to me. So I think that’s, that’s when I kind of was like, Oh, this, this strategy thing is just something that I’m innately good at. But kind of coming coming back to the beginning of the career trajectory, it’s been pretty unconventional, I started. I started in mechanical engineering, actually, which is like quite quite far removed from what I do on my day job or even night job to be honest. But I some would say that they’re still kind of like the the realms of strategy start there. And then since then, I’ve kind of like, you know, did my masters in marketing strategy. And that’s, that’s, I think this strategic career part really came into being I worked at a lot of different creative and digital agencies. Currently, I’m at my first in house job, and still kind of like finding out like, what strategy means to me and two people in the world. So that’s the long and short of it.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 2:27
Yeah. I love that I never knew that you studied or were a mechanical engineer. That’s fascinating to me. And I think one of the things I love so much about the strategy inside everything is that little peek into what you’re saying of how strategy has manifested for people in other areas of life, or how they’ve stumbled into strategy in their own way as well. Part of why I was excited to talk to you today is because it’s a new year. And because I know from knowing you that you have been on a bit of a personal development journey, so it felt like a perfect time to talk about how we evolve as strategists and we evolve as people and what the relationship between those two things are. So can you tell me how your personal development journey got started?
Nishita Tamuly 3:25
I love it personal development journey sounds so official and not messy, which it actually very much is. I think the real honest answer to that is, growth has always been synonymous for like synonymous to living my life. For me, I think for me, not unlike, become successful, and climb the corporate ladder kind of growth, but more like, get to know myself better, like who am I am I living in my potential. And I think these last couple of years has, I think it’s really honed into Am I living in my values. One of the kinds of exercise or exercise I did early on in this journey was the Brene. Brown core value naming your core values exercise, I think you could find it on her website, for those of you who are curious. And she talks about kind of like naming two or three core values that you know, you lean on to when you’re making those big decisions in your lives. And it can’t be more than two or three. And courage and growth were kind of the two that I narrowed down to and the exercise kind of forces you to think of those bigger changes or bigger transitions or big decisions in your life and like really think of like what made you take those decisions and as someone who’s kind of lived in four countries in the past four years, I’ve had my fair share of like transitions and big decisions and each time the decision I made was based on Am I growing as a person in my life? Am I living in my like in my true potential and do I have the courage to take this decision? For me, so I think growth growth kind of has been very much the way I look at living my life. So in some ways personal development journey has been part of my life for since I guess, I began to think. But I can to call out in that is, you know, we all talk about, like having visions and visions, being our North Star and in a journey towards any kind of development, right. And one thing a fellow strategist actually had said to me, in passing one time, which has been, it was such a wise thing. She said that she’s kind of opposed to having visions be tied to a North Star, because the North Star is and visions can evolve. And she truly preferred values being acting like your GPS, and guiding you wherever you’re going, right. So even if your destination changes your values, as your GPS will really guide you to a path which is true to you, and is still taking you towards the destination or towards, you know, whatever that vision or goal is. And even if that goal changes, that’s fine, but at least your values are always letting you stay true to yourself. And I think I really try to practice that a lot. These days. As far as, like I said, I think living in my values is kind of being synonymous to growth for me these days and thinking about anytime I’m facing a decision, I turn back to my core values and think of like, you know, Is this really me living my potential and those core values? I thought, What the
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 6:36
That’s totally No, it’s great. Um, I there’s a, I don’t even know what to call her I guess, writer, philosopher, who I know, her name’s Danielle Laporte. And she has a program called the desire map. And it’s very similar to this idea of a, she calls it goals with soul, where if you set a goal, and you have a very fixed idea of what it is, and you’re on your way, there, sometimes we cannot stop to check in with, if we still want to be doing that, if it still feels good for us, because we’re so focused on what it needs to look like. And so she says that, what we should focus on is how we desire to feel she calls them core desired feelings. If your goal is to feel in flow, free and empowered, maybe this goal is right, to nurture that feeling in you. Or maybe it’s not, and you need to identify a different goal or a different set of circumstances or decisions that you need to make. And I think that advice you’ve got about this, you know, a North Star can be dangerous, because it’s fixed versus values, I think is super relevant, not just in the strategy context, but in this idea of like, strategy for our lives.
Nishita Tamuly 8:04
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think what you said about the danger of it being fixed, right? Like, I feel like so much of my life, I kind of felt spent justifying my decisions, because that’s what you know, that that those were fixed. And they were well thought out. And that is what I thought I wanted and to a point where actually that’s probably the answer to your original question of like, the the start of this, this real journey in the past couple of years was what I was a pretty problematic job back in 2020, when I was in Amsterdam, and I kind of was that, that mismatch between what I expected and what my decision was to choose that job to begin with, and, and the reality of how I was feeling about it. And that’s when well now in hindsight, I know that what I was experiencing was really emotional burnout. And taking that time for myself and like really questioning my choices and you know, confronting like, what is it that I wanted? Am I doing it is my expectation and reality really matching? That was kind of my first real radical act of self care for myself and honestly, has been a turning point in my journey to like, really grow and understand my selves better.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 9:19
And you can decline to answer this if you don’t want to, but I’m curious. Were there circumstances that you were able to identify within that work environment that contributed to your burnout that you now know, aren’t a fit for you or that maybe you take a critical lens forward in your evaluating of future work opportunities?
Nishita Tamuly 9:45
I think the biggest one that I can say is that whenever there is more talk and less substance behind it, like you’ll always know, like, they’ll always be people, companies, whatever situations which kind of like hyper So, we have this, we have that and we are committed to whatever diversity, equity inclusion and all of that fun stuff. And when you kind of really evaluate, like, what is the like, again, the difference between what what is what is the expectation or perceived, kind of like, facade versus like, what is the ground reality? Like, what are the actions being taken on a day to day to really meet those kind of big lofty goals that that can be a very clear indicator of from from the get go. And again, a lot of this has to do with like, how aware you are with your own kind of like, what do you expect? What are your thoughts? How are you showing up as a person to really recognize if the environment is supporting that or aligned with that? And so, yeah, one of one of the things that I would say is like that be real about expectation versus like, what are the hardcore facts on the ground? That was that, and don’t try to kind of like, what do they think they say this about, like relationships, like, you know, don’t fall in love with potential is the same thing with jobs and careers, too, right? Like you don’t don’t fall in love with the idea of like, what this person this company, this brand, the strategy can be like, what is the reality of it? And I think that was my biggest struggle, and really trying to do the right thing, as I was thinking that I’m doing the right thing by pushing them towards that potential, at my own cost was probably summing up the reason for my burnout, because it wasn’t physical, for sure.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 11:29
Yeah. And because it wasn’t physical, I almost feel like that’s more insidious and harder to identify emotional burnout. Was there anyone who helped you realize that that was going on or something that happened that helped you say, Oh, actually, this is, this is a thing, this has a name. And this is something I wanted to address.
Nishita Tamuly 11:54
You know, it’s funny, because you’re very, right. It’s very insidious, and dangerous in a way, because speaking up about it requires courage, right. So there were a lot of my peers at the time, we’re kind of going through the same thing. And we would have a lot of conversations about how toxic it was how, you know, we were not happy things needed to change, it was really taking a toll on us. And yet, like, collect, we were not able to do much about it. Kind of again, and that’s kind of leaned back to, like my core values be encouraged and having the courage to kind of say that, you know what, this is actually not not good for me, and I need to step away from it. And what really helped me was was a very practical thing that that that’s kind of government offer to the people off Netherlands, which is something that should just universally be a thing, but it is burnout leave. And like I think I wouldn’t have known this, had I not, you know, like spoken to people about it. And I think one of my friends who lived in Netherlands for a lot longer. She kind of said that he not? How do you know that the Dutch government actually support this, so you should kind of like, take off it. And that’s when I was like, You know what it is literally on a platter there for me, like, all I need to do is have the courage to say this is what I’m experiencing. And this is what I need to do for myself. So it was a bit of like that emotional state that you’re in, but like a very practical solution that our system offers.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 13:24
Wow, that is amazing. We need we need that universally more of that. Yeah. Personally in our industry. And I do feel like my question was leading a little bit to because I know, my literacy around burnout increased exponentially when I joined the Ladies Who Strategize community, and you’re also a leader of that community. And so you have an interesting perspective as a participant, but also as a leader, and seeing how the community comes together to support people who are feeling burnt out and know it or don’t know it. What has it been like? Seeing those conversations outside of your own experience?
Unknown Speaker 14:19
I think there’s so much power in being in someone else’s story. You know, and I remember, I think Kim, who’s the founder of LWR, she was one of the first people that I actually accepted that this is something that I’m going to do for myself, I’m going to take leave for emotional burnout. And her first reaction was like, she was literally like, I could hear the joy in her voice. I’m so proud of you for this for yourself. And that gave me so much courage to actually take that step. And it’s not like it’s not just her like I feel like that’s the she kind of is the environment that the whole community were when I started talking to people about what I was going through the reception that I got with like, you know what But similar experiences that others were going through and like here was this entire community of so many brilliant people all over the world, celebrating my decision to slow down and kind of being like, you know, yes, do this for yourself as opposed to every other conditioning that we hear about slowing down and taking time off and taking time for yourself being like bad or like, you know, something that is not to be proud off. And it was such a wonderful experience. It is feel held by the whole community to be honest.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 15:30
Yes, yes. And so you made this decision, LW s had your back? Because that’s what LWS does. What when you first arrived at your I am now on leave? Did you jump right into self care and personal development? How did it look, because I do want to talk about some of the things you’ve done, you’ve tried.
Unknown Speaker 16:01
Yes. And suit, like, I think you’re going right into like, the artists way of the program, which was, I think one of the first things that happened to kind of happened to come across during that time. And it’s not a one I actually started the program. But it was actually someone from LWS who spoke about our display and like, thinking of like, starting an accountability group to like, do the kind of 12 weeks together, and I hadn’t, I didn’t really know about it before then. But it was kind of one of those things that I felt like I needed to do for myself. But like, before we even get into that I feel like I could talk about writing as a tool. Like, this whole podcast could just be about writing as a tool of self care. And something that I have always done. But I think that even more so like early on in this phase of life was really just reflect more and journal what I what I was thinking what I was feeling more intentionally, to be honest, and kind of coupled with that. What I did with all my time was also revisit some of like, my older journals when like, you know, three, four or five years back, and that was so therapeutic and healing because I was reading thing, and finding a new perspective and wisdom, in my own words. And I think people often kind of like ask questions about like, what advice would you give to your younger self, and I kind of want to flick through the table and say, you know, like, pay attention to what your younger self was saying, because she has a lot to say. And this is like, one advice I want to give everybody is to just take, take the time to document your life through your own words and eyes, because there is more value in it than, like more value than you would think of like new you wouldn’t think of like revisiting some of your own past chapters. But that’s exactly what you need sometimes to like, you know, find that confidence in yourself, find that faith in yourself that you know, you you, you’re right, and you’re doing okay, and you’ve always kind of like had your own back. So I think that that kind of reaffirmed a lot of like, the choices and decisions I was making at the time.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 18:09
Yeah, and for those who don’t know, writing, so hearing that you had this foundational journaling practice that allowed you to both create and process as well as reflect historically, there is an element of writing in the artists way. But do you want to share, like how the artists way, is bigger than that, too, and any takeaways you had from it. And by the way, Julia Cameron is the author of the book and program the artists way. Oh, yeah, I
Unknown Speaker 18:44
think the artists way. I think one of the premises, even with the writing part of artists way is that you know, you don’t don’t think about as writing, it’s just, it’s, again, just that it’s a tool to unlock that inner potential and creativity and whole kind of like the artists within you, right, like, that’s exactly what it’s called. And I think it was very interesting to kind of like, understand that the artists way. Could be for anybody, like, I don’t think I would have called myself an artist before joining kind of this journey with where you are one of the people who kind of like, you know, I took this journey with and, and seeing how other people were developing the relationship with art and art could be so many forms, and the artists within you is really about that creativity in which you live your life that sets you free to do not again, live live the life that you want to design. And I think designing your life, in some sense is also an art and if that’s the case, then all of us are artists.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 19:43
Yes, I couldn’t agree more. And we both really resonated with different aspects of the program. So morning pages is what Julia Cameron calls the writing aspect of the art. Artists way. And I think in the strategy world, it’s very similar to what we would call a brain dump. So you’re meant to do it first thing in the morning, wake up and write stream of consciousness. And I am not a morning person, as anyone who has ever worked with me can attest to, I’m a little bit more of a night owl, I always have been. But there’s another aspect to the program that really resonated with me, which is called artist dates. And the premise of that is that you make intentional time to nurture your creative self. And again, that creative self can look like anything, it could look like model building, or it could look like writing or it could look like visual art, or it could be working on you know, your car, or cleat, you know, deep clean of the house can be art, and what but it was a framework for asking you to create intentional time and loving time because it’s called a date to nurture that part of yourself. And so sometimes for me, it was as simple as going to the park by myself and listening to a podcast, because when else do I have time to just sit and listen and get inspired by something, or go to an art gallery, or get coffee with an inspiring friend, were there any memorable artists dates that you did while you were doing the artists way?
Unknown Speaker 21:32
Kido that is something that I was never really good at. inspiration from you, and you just made the artists date sounds so like, I don’t know, the good last if you’re alive, you know, and I feel like you made it feel deserving, and worthy, worthy. And I think, even like we’re long, long after like, I’m not really doing the artists a program anymore. Even though I do my morning pages, I still kind of channeled some of my Caitlin energy when I’m like, Oh, I just didn’t like indulging in myself today. So like, for me, what I kept out of the practice, and kind of all of your examples was a day when I kind of want to indulge myself, I’ll go to like an iced coffee shop and pay like my four pounds for for a cappuccino, which I could just make at home. And like just sit in the people watch, read write whatever it is. But that I think is one way to kind of like celebrate myself a little bit. So I’ve taken some inspiration from you there.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 22:30
Celebrating yourself is so important. And for people who have experienced burnout, the idea of doing anything laissez faire for a little while is so counter to the way you’ve been operating that led you to burnout, that, for me, those things were very challenging at first. And I think for some of the people we did the artists way with as well who were more resistant to the artists date portion of it, because it feels like it’s not productive. But I feel like if I can trick myself into loving doing nothing or loving that $4 indulgent coffee, where my only job is to sit and enjoy that coffee, then maybe I can rewire some of the burnout, you know, the tendencies I have that got me to a state of burnout and hopefully repair some of that. And that’s like my thinking, not my psychological perspective on it. But that’s how I try to trick myself into doing.
Unknown Speaker 23:43
I think you do have something there, though. And what do you say about rewiring is really, really important because I feel like slowing down is very much on the natural these days to like what we’re conditioned to be in a does require practice. And that’s something that you know, rituals like this really, really do help. And one of the kind of like rituals that I’ve consistently maintained over the last few years is my morning ritual of like waking up meditating, doing my pages, making my cup of coffee, sometimes tending to the plants, like depending on if they need water or not. But like that has been the most consistent part of my life through all the changes that I’ve been through these so many years, like living in different homes and countries and different emotional states. That stability of those rituals has really made slowing down a consistent practice in my life. And I can like I can tell the periods that I fell off the grid with my morning pages. I could physically tell how it was cluttering my life and mind up in the moment I kind of like got back into more of a consistent rhythm with it. It just felt freeing to like let it out on the page and you know, kind of find that freedom in the ritual itself. I love that
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 24:57
and that to me what you’re describing It is not a hard to reach standard of a morning routine. We read these things in like the cut, you know, New York Magazine, like, check out a so and so entrepreneurs morning routine and it’s like I go for a 10 mile jog. I make freshly pressed green juice, you know this, it feels like so daunting. And what you’re describing is, you know, so soft is like the word that comes to mind and slow, like you said, but slow in a really juicy way, like a really affirming way.
Unknown Speaker 25:39
You know, you make a really good point about sometimes these things feeling very unattainable. And I think that’s kind of what my barrier was the biggest time like, how do I kind of like break this down for me. And at the end of the day, like the the like you said, soft and kind of I have it on a posted here is gentle actions. And I think that’s that’s like what is your gentle action, because I know people who like that 10 mile 10 mile, if that’s realistic run in the morning is a gentle action for themselves. And for me, that’s like, hello, like you’re not going to be, you’re not going to catch me doing that. Unless I’m like running from my life. Like, I love coffee. And that’s kind of like, you know, just making my own coffee in the morning is is my gentle action towards myself.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 26:26
The other word you said to earlier was like ritual. And this is my ritual. And taking something in that like making coffee for myself and taking it out of this place of this is a thing I’m doing that’s functional to survive, so that I can grind all day and get my deliverables out the door. But instead making it like this moment of gentle action and taking care of myself in savoring it and tasting it and smelling it and having it be this ritual in a way that gives it a little bit more. I don’t know meaning in life, instead of seeing the supporting character to working work, work, work, or going to live my life and in all of the things I need to do on my to do list. I do think helps reframe and helps, again, with that get out of that burnout mental state where it’s like, I need to do this to do these other things. But rather, I need to do this to care for me because I’m important.
Unknown Speaker 27:30
Yeah, and I what you said about like, make coffee, the hero of your day, like coffee deserves to be the hero. I think that’s, that’s so beautiful, because you’re right, like none of this would actually happen though, if you don’t slow down and say, You know what, I am going to take the five or 10 minutes to make my coffee as opposed to kind of like, you know, just like doing the instant thing and grabbing it on my way out or whatever and like just taking whatever like smell like in this like stop and smell the roses like whenever that thing came into being like that there is merit in that in like the really like slow moments of your life because that is when you get to kind of like acknowledge Why are you even doing something like be more intentional about it? I think that’s what I’m trying to say like anything that you do intentionally is going to add meaning to your life, whether that’s making coffee or writing a deck or changing the world.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 28:28
Now has this self care personal development journey that you’ve been on? influenced your work as a strategist?
Unknown Speaker 28:38
Oh, that’s a good question. You know, I think it somewhere reminded me that strategy to me is a mindset, not a career. And it really allowed me to kind of get out of those lanes that you know, like I am a social strategist or a brand strategist or a research strategist and just kind of like think about strategy as the bigger picture like, like their strategy inside everything, like as the name of the podcast is and paraphrasing Seneca here but like it really kind of like made me think of like, I’m not meant for any one corner of the world. So why should kind of like my strategic mindset be and I think that really opened, opened up the way I think about strategy to think about, think about how I apply strategy. And I think one of the reasons why I made the shift to where I am today is really kind of like acknowledging that I have a lot more to offer. And that can have impact if I just open up the way I think about my career to think about if I open up the way I think about where I can apply strategy, and I think just elevate what I what I have to offer to the world.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 29:48
You have so much to offer the world. i How’s it been possible for you to bring some of that slowness? into your work at all? And if so, how? And if not, how do you cope with that?
Unknown Speaker 30:09
You know, that’s, that’s a very important question because one of the things that I want to kind of stress on is this whole idea of slowness or slowing down. It’s a verb, right? It’s constant you like, it’s not like I learned the art of slowing down. And that’s it one and done. I think it’s a daily practice. And there’ll be some days when you’re better, better better at it than not. And some days when you’re not able to leave it at all. And that’s okay, too, doesn’t mean you have to go relearn the art of slowing down it just you know that that whole idea of practice and ritual and really being intentional about wanting to slow down. And I think one of the traps that. of slowing down can feel like, Oh, you’re falling behind. So so there’s a distinction to be made here, like slowing down isn’t falling behind. And as a kind of reflect, tying it back to like parallel to how it affects work is this constant kind of productivity porn cycle that we’re all in? And you’re like, am I being productive enough? Am I doing enough? Am I being good enough? Can I do more, and I think that’s a constant struggle. And when you’re trying to kind of juxtapose that, but I want to be more intentional, but I want to kind of slow down. And I think there’s always going to be tension between these two. And that’s okay, I think the important thing is to kind of like, think of the sum of the whole, like, if you’re still able to be more intentional than not, that is a win. And I think the important thing to remember here is that you’re not going to really see that change in like the big sweeping winds, right, it isn’t going to be like glaring in your face, someone isn’t going to give you an award for it, it’s going to be in those really tiny moments, which are so easy to miss if you don’t pay attention. And to make a little bit more tangible, like I was just thinking of it. A couple of days back, something that I would get very bothered by earlier is that if I was not included in a meeting that I was meant to be that I was clearly meant to be on. And early, I will get very agitated and try to be like, oh, like, you know, why can’t people just whatever do their thing and like get really frustrated about it. And recently, I started noticing that if I’m if I am not on the meeting that I was supposed to be on? My reaction is like, Oh, well, you know, okay, it’s their loss. Because I know, I would have added value here. And this whole kind of narrative of access to me is a privilege. And it isn’t just about like, who gets access to me and how much I let people in. But it’s also about like, I know, I have a lot to offer. Do you get access to it? Are you deserving to get access to it? And part of it is, well, if you bring me in the room, then you have access to it. If you don’t, then I get to spend that energy somewhere else. And I think that’s how I’ve been practicing this more intentionally at work to like just being okay with what where do I allow access? And where do I draw a stamp a stronger boundary.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 33:10
I think if there’s a thing that burnout teaches us as well is that we have only a finite amount of energy to give things. And when you give and give and give to a job. And I won’t say work because I feel like like I share your perspective, that work can be extremely broad. But let’s say a job, then that can lead to that place of feeling like I just don’t have much more to give myself to the people I love to the things I’m passionate about in the world to my community, you feel disconnected, you start to shut down. And so reframing this idea of access, like well, I only have so much and and it is a privilege to be able to use this energy for other people to benefit from this way of thinking that I’m bringing to them or my resources that I have. And I don’t know I’m I just picture you like standing so tall and strong in that now. And that’s so awesome and empowering. And I think it’s any, you know, a little mindset shift that anyone can start to adopt if they think about it that way. You know, something
Unknown Speaker 34:26
my coach said to me to kind of help practice this more regularly is that what might you be able to do if you take the energy back from here? And I think that’s why it’s kind of like a pool question for me now like whenever I kind of find myself getting agitated about something I questioned myself that you know, is this really worth it? Like if I just save my energy here? What might I be able to do with and can I invest more in LWS? Can I show up for that lunch break? Can I kind of you know, just just go for an artistic it like that’s that, that making that tangible with what I can do, what else I can do with my energy really helps to practice it more consistently.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 35:11
I want to talk you said you have a coach has have you benefited from coaching? Is that something you would tell people to look into who may be facing something like burnout or the New Year? Scramble of what am I doing? Has that helped you?
Unknown Speaker 35:29
100%? I think I’ve been with my coach for over seven years now. And I think it’s been like, literally like a journey of so much growth right and growth a different straight stages? And what I guess the answer to answer your question, I’d say, it really works for me, because I am a person who likes accountability. And I’m a person who kind of like find it very hard to ask for support. So having a coach to open up to one kind of like work through some of these things, which I shy away from, like telling other people has really worked for me to open up to the people who are kind of really want to open up with. But what I really want to get at is, for anybody who’s kind of like seeking any sort of aid in any way, I think, seek that support, whether that support is through a coach, a therapist, a community, a writing course, artists date, whatever it is, you know, but like, I think support is such an important part of living in your values in your potential. And you know, like, there’s so much going on in the world, which can really make you question who you are and what your value is. And this also took narratives just waiting, waiting to crush you. And finding spaces for support is kind of like where you don’t feel insane. And I think one of the I have to give a shout out to LWS here where I feel like I’ve that the community and kind of like all it embodies has really made me feel seen and not insane for kind of being who I am, and having and holding such high standards for myself and for my life. And like I think without the support of the community, I don’t think I would have been able to speak as articulately as I am about my whole journey, my struggles. And what I’ve done to support myself, by the way is of the support of the community, the support off my mentors, my family, my coach. And I think that’s yeah, so the key word here would be seek that support in whatever way works for you.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 37:39
Yeah, one way that I recently heard about two that sounded so appealing to me, as I’m thinking about where I’m going to draw support from this year. There’s this kind of radical, mystical, pink haired witchy woman who I’ve been following on social media for a long time. Her name is gala darling. And she has something that she calls her magical morning practice. And with a friend, so she has a buddy that she does this with, they have a little accountability practice where every morning, they send each other a voice note. And I believe it follows a certain template like I am just, you know, hey, I think her friends Natasha that she does this, which says hey, Natasha, it’s Gala, I’m setting out to have the, you know, a rockstar day today, like, here’s what I’m hoping to feel, you know, throughout the day, here’s what I’m hoping to do. And to me, I’m like, That’s so easy. I can just pick up my phone, record a little voice note, send it to a friend. But just knowing that someone is hearing you. Whether it’s the I’m putting the positive intention out there, or knowing that that morning, someone is expecting me to send them a voice note, if it’s the morning where I don’t want to get out of bed, and I just want to send a voice note. I’m struggling to get out of bed. But then as soon as I start recording, it’s gonna be like, I want to get out of bed, right? Like I’m struggling to get out of bed, but I’m going to do it and and Tasha, I’m going to do it. I’m going to go for a walk around the block. And now I’ve already looped in and created that support so easily. So I don’t think it you know, it always needs to be a coach, like you said, or, you know, doing a big undertaking, like the artists way if you can just find that one friend or your partner or someone that you can reciprocally collaborate with on the process like a great creative art director, copywriter or something right? That it helps a lot.
Nishita Tamuly 39:41
That I mean that you nailed it there. It’s just about that collaboration, that partnership of like, you know, whether that’s for accountability, whether it’s just for checking whether that’s the build off of each other, like that’s, like at the end of the day, like we’re all human beings and we all need connection and that’s what support is is just a form of connection to know that you’re okay and you’ve got this Sometimes you just need that reminder. Yeah.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 40:03
So as we near the end of our conversation, I’m going to ask you the classic research question, which is, what did I not think to ask you today that you were hoping to talk about anything? You know,
Nishita Tamuly 40:18
we covered this a little bit. But I kind of don’t want to miss miss the opportunity of talking about like, what’s really hard about, about kind of slowing down. And we talked us on with a little bit of like, you know, it is kind of like a continuous, it’s a verb and not like, it’s a journey, not a destination. But something that I’ve been reflecting on lately in this with in this whole kind of journey is that slowing down really is a way to reacquaint yourself with yourself, right? And that means that you’re going to kind of like, revisit every decision, every choice and every kind of like part of life you’ve lived. And that, that can also mean that it’s going to really feel confrontational to like, justify and defend those choices and the life you’ve lived in and loved in and lost in and say that, you know, what, maybe that didn’t work out, maybe that’s not for you. And that can feel like an attack sometimes. And I think the hardest part about this is not being hard on yourself. And that’s kind of where we don’t talk about the hardness of this, like, while there is so much merit and so much to get out of like, the process of slowing down and really reacquainting yourself with yourself. It’s really emotion can be really emotionally draining. So sometimes, and I’m definitely one of them, but people get obsessed with like growth and like being a better person and like living in your potential and like doing the right thing. And sometimes it’s really just okay to do the easy thing and to just kind of like let yourself be, and not have to kind of like, prove that you’re growing and prove that you’re slowing down and prove your choices and just be like, You know what, I fucked up there. That’s okay. Tomorrow is another day now, to practice this again. So really, really want to underscore how important it is to be kind to yourself in this whole journey? Because it can be very, very confrontational.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 42:24
Yeah. And I see the parallels between what you’re describing, and how you end up burnt out from something like a job. Because if, if it’s that you are doing all the things, and you’re the person that everyone relies on in the company, and how do I make myself completely indispensable, and then you lead to a place where maybe you’re burnt out, it can be very easy to fill the space up that you’ve created, if you are trying to create space, or if you’re making a change, or you’re able to take burnout leave, it can be very easy to go in and say okay, well, now I am going to do all the things to be my best self. And now all of a sudden, you’ve created the same I need to be accomplished, I need to be there were somewhere other than where you are in that moment. And so to truly, I think, correct and heal some of the behaviors that are inherent and celebrated in our industry. It does require that discomfort you’re describing are like, Oh, when I stopped doing all the things, there I am, like, there, there’s whatever’s going to come up there are the things I was trying not to think about are the things I was trying not to. I was working away, and they’ll be there. That’s hard.
Nishita Tamuly 43:54
Yeah, just sitting sitting with them is hard. But the thoughtful sentence, there really is that sitting with it. And really just letting yourself feel what you’re feeling has so much value because you kind of like finally, listen to the thing that you were meant to listen to in the first place to overcome it. So we often just skip this step of like sitting with it because you’re like, oh, it’s inconvenient and uncomfortable. But sitting with it has so much merit. And I kind of want to give you a shout out on this one because I think the first time I actually consciously sat with my feelings was when you kind of did the art therapy exercise at the Mexico retreat with a lovely West and Just sitting with those uncomfortable feelings and thoughts and like coming to the end of the exercise where you learn to become friends with them was like a game changer for me to you know, just just be like, Oh, you don’t have to like intellectualize everything to sit with it, and it will tell you what do you need to hear? So I think there is value in kind of just sitting in that bikini.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 44:55
And the thing is, is as strategists we’re primed to like we know This is true, we’re prying to know this is true because anyone who’s ever run a focus group or moderated an interview, for example, the truth always comes out in that like, little moment where at the very end of the interview, you say, Do you know do you have any questions for me? And then they say something that really rocks your world? Or they ask you a question that totally reframes your thinking about whatever it is you’re trying to learn in the first place. Or they just make one offhanded comment that totally blows your mind. But if you weren’t there, specifically with the intention to listen, when you would have never learned and so how do you bring that intentionality back to yourself and truly just listen and listen to the whispers before they become the screams?
Nishita Tamuly 45:50
I think this needs to be like a disclaimer falls chocolates is that we should just practice the strategy of life on ourselves as well as we do it at work because honestly, that’s what makes us better strategists, right? Like opening your mind opening your your kind of world outside of your narrow lanes and kind of like the questions you’re supposed to have answers to and like the latest innovation, they’re supposed to be snowing and like latest culture report is supposed to be supposed to have read. I think outside of all of that, when you just think about life. That’s what makes your mind richer in obviously, it’s gonna make your work richer.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 46:27
Where can people find you on the internet anywhere? Are you fully off?
Nishita Tamuly 46:33
I’m still very much on I’m just kind of like choosing more intentionally, as with everything else, like what what I want to share, but you can like, um, if you Google me, you’ll definitely find me on LinkedIn and Instagram. Wherever like I’m there. I’m just like what I’m saying maybe a bit more, less frequent or more, as I like to think
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 46:53
of it. And as mentioned, Nishita you’re one of the leads in Ladies Who Strategize. Hopefully in the show notes we can drop the link since we talked about LWS Oh, lot. And is there anything else you want to promote or talk about today direct focus attention to?
Nishita Tamuly 47:12
I think, since we are talking about LWS, I think that’s definitely one thing that I would like to call out that the importance of community and like, if you are a female or non binary strategist, anywhere in the world, our community is open. So definitely apply. But even if you don’t kind of like meet that criteria, like find yourself, a community that you can kind of really let yourself be seen. And I think that’s that would be what I would encourage people to do.
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 47:42
Thank you so much for being here in Ashida I’m so excited for folks to hear this and get to think about life strategy.
Nishita Tamuly 47:50
Thank you and I think is one parting thought for everybody. If I could leave leave you with is something that kind of brought me to this point in my life is really reflecting on the fact that lessons that we’re meant to learn will keep repeating till you learn them. So slow down and pay attention to what those lessons might be. Even the parts you know, like listen to like all of it all parts of you, even the parts you kind of want to hide and shy away from. Because like I said, those are probably the ones that will really set you free to live your life not just live it. So thank you for allowing me to say
Kaitlin Maud-Moon 48:25
yes, yes, yes. Plus one.
A P 48:28
The Strategy Inside Everything is produced by me, Adam Pierno. If you like what you’ve heard, leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Actually, I have no idea if that helps, or if it’s ever done anybody any good. If you really want to help the show, and you like what you’ve heard, share it with someone else you think will dig it. That’s the best way to help the show and keep the conversation growing. If you have an idea, a question or want to push back, go to thatsnotaninsight.com where you can send me a message or leave me a voicemail that will be added to future shows. New music for The Strategy Inside Everything is by Luke Holizna, for more information on his music go to holizna.com. You can also support him by going to his Patreon at patreon.com/Holizna. For more information on me, you can go to AdamPierno.com To learn about my books, my speaking and my consulting practice. Thanks for listening.