You can trust Jasmine Bina

Jasmine Bina made time in her day (evening, actually) to talk about how people develop trust. She is the CEO of Concept Bureau and a prolific thinker and writer. This article, The Tipping Point of Trust is what we based our conversation around. Oddly, we lived this out as I (tried to) earn Jasmine’s trust in real time during this chat. It’s both a wide-ranging and extremely focused talk that you are going to play more than once.

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Transcript by

Adam Pierno 0:27
Alright, welcome back to another episode of the strategy inside everything. We are going to have a very good talk. Well, let me ask you, listeners, do you trust me? that we’re going to have a good episode to see what I did there? Jasmine? Was that amazing? I am nothing else there’s not a master of the segue. Today, today’s guest is Jasmine Bina who is the CEO of Concept Bureau. Jasmine, thank you so much for joining us.

Jasmine Bina 1:07
Yes, I’m so happy to be here.

She is tolerating my sloppy segue and my terrible dad jokes, which I share, and I’ll take it.

Jasmine Bina
No they’re great. I love dad jokes. They’re the best kind.

Adam Pierno 1:20
They are they are and what do you want the alternative? like dark dirty jokes from some guy? And then you’re a creep. Let’s, let’s um, I want to jump in and talk about your article that you wrote about trust and the tipping point of trust. But before we do that, would you give people a sense of the people who may not be familiar with who you are just a sense of where you’ve been and what you’ve done?

Jasmine Bina 1:45
Yeah, sure. So, um, I am the CEO of Concept Bureau. This has been pretty much been my life’s work. I started this agency about 10 years ago, while I was in grad school, then it wasn’t called Concept Bureau, and it was more focused on public relations. And I kind of fell into the startup scene started, you just did some freelance work for a friend who launched a tech startup, and then it turned into an actual business. And we grew and working with a lot of Silicon Valley startups. And at that time, you could be a startup in Silicon Valley, and get funding and get, you know, millions of users, and not even know how you got there. You know, it was it was a time when it was kind of like, you know, the internet was reinventing itself. It was the wild west of the app economy. And we would get these brands have come to us. And they’re like, All right, we’ve raised whatever in our series C, we have millions of users great metrics, we want to go to press and you know, we did more like more longtail PR stuff, for companies that were really trying to either create a new narrative or create a new space. And I would tell them, I don’t have a brand. There’s no brand here. Because you could get big without having a story. You could get big without having a strategy at that time. Certainly not anymore. But you know, is this kind of like this crazy time. And so we would do a quick and dirty brand strategy before we could get to the PR. And at that time, I didn’t have the foresight to see that. That was really the value add, I thought it was just something I had to do before I could do my real work. And it became a bigger and bigger part of our offering. We got really good at it, I realized I enjoyed that piece a lot. Because we do love crisis communications too. And so like I’m convinced I took years off the end of my life, but

Adam Pierno 3:32
it was high stress.

Jasmine Bina 3:33
Yeah, I was really hard wired for high stress. And even I loved it. And I was really good at it. I had a fantastic mentor at the time, who told me that really, this whole space was going to move towards brand strategy. And that’s that was going to be where the margins were, and the budgets were going to move from PR to that space. And so I thought, Okay, great, we will rebrand our own company, and will certainly brand strategy, but I didn’t know because I had never sold brand strategy before I had done it. But it was just always as an add on. So that’s when I started writing my I met my partner at the time. And he told me that, you know, he comes from an engineering background. And for him everything is systems and processes. And I remember arguing with him, like white knuckles arguing, saying, strategy cannot be systematized, you know, it’s branding is so it’s so internal and creative. And it comes from a creative place. And

Adam Pierno 4:30
how do you feel about Yeah,

Jasmine Bina 4:32
oh, man, I can’t think outside of a framework anymore. Like I just, I needed to help me get to where I’m going. And it took me a long time to trust frameworks, even though even the ones I created myself. But, you know, he really taught me that. If you can’t put constraints around creativity, you’re really limiting the creativity itself. You know, that sounds counterintuitive. You need to have a reliable process for coming to the same conclusion every time or else. I mean, how are you going to build a business if it’s always going to come out of, you know, the recesses of your mind? So that’s why I started writing, you know, to figure out what do I actually believe about brand strategy, what’s my philosophy, I needed to articulate it, and I couldn’t do it unless I was, you know, literally, like transcribing it out of my head. And it’s still, it’s still why I write, I feel like there’s so much more to kind of like discover or figure out about where strategy is going. Because you know, as long as the world is changing, strategy will be changing.

And yeah, you know, and so now I feel like I have two jobs, really, one is the writing, which is the piece I absolutely love. And then Concept Bureau, which is brand strategy agency, we work with clients from all industries, all verticals, I’d say if we had some specialties, it would be that we focus on the post boomer generation, that’s where the bulk of my research has been over the years, people that are, you know, 45, or 40, and younger, and really creating new behaviors and users, I feel that brand is like the silver bullet, it’s the fastest way to get people to see the world differently, to behave differently in that world, into create a new reality out of it really

Adam Pierno 6:17
know. And that’s, that’s really helpful for crisis communications to have a brand because then you know, it’s a backbone that you can lean push back against and say, No, no, we’re always about this. And so our answer has to relate in this way. When you don’t have a brand or a story or anything, crisis communications is just coming out with with a shield up and hoping you don’t get slaughtered.

Jasmine Bina 6:40
That is so 100% true. And people really don’t understand that it’s it’s such an insurance policy, because, you know, when a crisis happens, it’s always because you were acting off brands. And even if you don’t have a brand, that itself is a narrative, it is an identity. And when you when you move outside of your lane, essentially, that’s when a crisis crops up. And so you know, being able to return to that place and say like, okay, we remember who we are now, we will not do this, again, we, we know what we need to do differently next time, because we have such a strong belief in our identity. That’s what kind of brings people back to a place of trust. And it’s invaluable. You know, every time you invest in your brand, you’re really investing in where your company will be in two to five years. It’s not just for today, it’s definitely for a timeline.

Adam Pierno 7:34
Know, and it sustains and it carries you through those down times when people are uncertain about what’s happening. They have that always to tie back to and go. Oh, right. I remember this rough association of the brand.

Jasmine Bina 7:48
Yeah, I should bring it to my pitch meetings. Yes, absolutely.

Adam Pierno 7:53
You can zoom me I had to do that. Right. Well, I wanted to talk to you today about an I so sloppily did in the introduction, the word trust, because you had a very interesting definition of the word trust that you covered in an article which obviously, I will link to here in the show notes. But you want to you want to give people a sense of what that what how you define trust in that article.

Jasmine Bina 8:20
Right. So, you know, trust is it, people have tried to define it in many different ways. It’s one of those words, it’s kind of hard to figure out kind of like, you know, the word cool, or the word porn, you know, you know what it is, but you can’t quite articulate it in words. And the best definition, I found, essentially, the summary of it is trust is believing that you will behave a certain way or do a certain thing, even though I know I can’t control what you do. And it creates interesting tipping points. So in brands, lot of times I feel like it’s important to bring us there’s to a tipping point of trust where, you know, there’s there’s a risk, there’s vulnerability, but you get users to a point where you reward them for taking that risk. And they cross that threshold and a new form or excuse me, a new bond is created with them. Because you’ve created that trust making experience. It’s It’s the moment that you go from, let’s say shopping to consuming or from witnessing to being I love a lot of time, say from conscious to subconscious. You’re either cognizant of what you’re doing when you’re interacting with a brand, or you’re literally just experiencing it. And we always want to get our users to that experience. side of the equation, it’s really a deeper way of connecting with a brand and its story and its identity. I know that sounds very abstract and and up in the clouds. But we I think a great way like a universal experience that we’ve all had is is Airbnb. So you know you It seems very commonplace now but just imagine using Airbnb for the first time again, and there’s so much anxiety leading up to when you actually arrive at your hosts home, you don’t know what it’s going to be like you don’t know if you can trust the photography or the descriptions, you don’t know if you’re gonna like the person that’s there to give you the keys, who can be clean, whatever. And when you get there, something happens the first morning or the second morning after you get there, you’re drinking coffee on the patio and you feel relaxed, you feel like you are not just in the home, but you’re in the city, you are there. And you’ve passed that tipping point of trust. What’s interesting about that example, though, is that it’s really easy to look at that and say, Oh, well, that’s a design solution. Right? They created a product that gets you over that tipping point. Really?

Adam Pierno 10:44
Yeah. That’s what hooked me on about your thinking on this because I’m not a I’ve never used Airbnb. And I don’t, they haven’t figured they haven’t figured me out yet. Because I just don’t. I don’t want to be standing at that door. Having that doubt. I like going ROM I guess maybe I’m just of that age, right? I still want to go to a hotel and know what I’m getting and still be a bed and a flat screen TV and a lamp. I can’t figure out how to turn on. Right.

Jasmine Bina 11:11
Right. So their message hasn’t reached you yet. But, you know, Airbnb, I just I can’t stress this enough to people. It’s not that they designed a product or an experience that got you over the tipping point. They planted a story in your head way before you got there. So I don’t know if you remember when they did their rebrand many years ago, and they got so much flak the whole belong anywhere campaign, and people were making fun of the logo, which was really just a red herring, it was a brilliant campaign, when they started talking about belong anywhere. They were saying travel is not about travel, travel is about belonging. And they could have talked about a lot of things they could have compared their features to a hotel, their pricing, their convenience, whatever, but they chose not to, they said, you can find yourself through an Airbnb experience. And for a generation of people who, you know, millennials, they feel disenfranchised, to feel lost in the world. That’s a very compelling story. It’s a very compelling promise. So by the time you get to your Airbnb, you’re not thinking about traveling, you’re expecting self discovery. And so you’re not comparing it to hotel, you’re not looking for clean sheets, or, you know, being able to call room service in the middle of the night, what you’re looking for is to feel like you belong in a city that you’re immersed in the experience of that location. And they framed you for the tipping points so that when you got there, you understood it and you can, you could you could put yourself over that line. It is so effective. Now you see hotels literally trying to brand themselves from the cities that they’re in, right in these hyper local experiences. And it’s, it’s a great step I don’t, it’s kind of missing the point. But that’s how powerful a tipping point can be if you engineer correctly, and you can see the product come second to the story and the brand,

Adam Pierno 13:01
which comes first. And so which part for you as when you started using. Let’s keep Let’s stay on the Airbnb example. Sure, the story seeding the story helps you build the trust, even after one or two experiences where you were still on the fence.

Jasmine Bina 13:19
Right. So, um, to be honest, I was never on the fence, I had great initial experiences, but I knew, you know, they had fantastic photography and and the films that they were making at the time, belong anywhere I felt, you know, it sounds trite now, but it was provocative, and it came out it made you stop and think. And you realize like this was not just about like, recreational tourism, you realize that you could actually have an emotional experience and it plays. So when you wake up in Paris, and you hear like, you know, the bread truck downstairs or like people screaming at each other, you know, you know, because then whenever somebody starting a newspaper or something, and I’m totally making this up, it’s a what happens when like, you hotel, and that would piss you off. But you’re in an Airbnb and you feel like it’s queens, you feel like you’re having an honest Parisian experience,

Adam Pierno 14:11
because they primed for that they primed you with a context.

Jasmine Bina 14:15
Exactly. That’s exactly it.

Adam Pierno 14:16
And so it. So anything that would be a disturbance, when you’re on the 12th floor of a Marriott all of us feels like you’re immersed.

Jasmine Bina 14:28
Yes, it feels like you’re you’re experiencing something authentic, it feels like you belong there. Like you’re witnessing something that you wouldn’t have witnessed at a hotel. And in many ways, you wouldn’t have witnessed it, even if it did happen there. Because you’re you would have been looking at it differently.

Adam Pierno 14:44
Because you’re insulated. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, it always feels one step away.

Jasmine Bina 14:50
Yes, very true. That’s another thing that that brand did, they really pulled you closer. And every time you eat every time a brand creates a tipping point, and people participate in that ad is about bringing you closer, you know, just like any kind of trust building relationship, when you when you take a risk, and then you’re rewarded for that risk, you develop trust with the other party. And brands can do this, there’s so many ways that brands can do this and do it really effectively. And it’s just like a human relationship, it’s it’s really not that different.

Adam Pierno 15:21
Well, human relationship is really critical. When we frame trust, because that’s the first thing a lot of people will think of they’ll they will compare trusting a brand or trusting a company to trusting a person which is in the Airbnb example, I’m trusting first, this brand that will deliver the experience, they promise. And then I’m trusting that the provider of the property will deliver on the photos they posted. And the reviews that they got, it’s very similar to a lot of modern brands like Uber and Lyft them. There’s a middle component, and there’s the brand. And then there’s the human element, or the exchange element is a weird proxy for the way retail used to be where you’d go in. And actually, you might talk to somebody and now everything is as automated as we can get it and separate people as much as we can.

Jasmine Bina 16:16
Yeah, absolutely true. I, I didn’t even really see the retail parallel until you mentioned it. But yeah, 100%. And what’s interesting about these brands, and the you know, the Uber example to is, it’s difficult when you’re a brand of brands, because every host is a brand, every driver is a brand, you know, their their, their their own experience. It’s hard to get your brand experience to kind of be the halo above those things. But when you do it, well, then people when I have a good experience with a driver, I’m not grateful. Just to the driver, I’m grateful to Uber, when I have a bad experience with the driver, I want to yell at Uber. So you know, pros and cons, but they own their relationship, which I think is remarkable when really your relationship has been kind of like fragmented into all of these service providers

Adam Pierno 17:07
across your platform. Yeah, it gives you a place to go with the issue versus a sit, you know, a sole proprietor that, you know, you’re not going to get any satisfaction, whereas Uber you believe has to protect its own reputation. It has your best interest at state, you know, at heart.

Jasmine Bina 17:24
Yeah, sure. Absolutely.

Adam Pierno 17:26
So the brand becomes the insurance policy that your experience will be

Jasmine Bina 17:29
again, Yes, exactly. Yes. Yeah, we that seems like it’s a theme. Right. Right. I should write about it.

Adam Pierno 17:36
Yeah, there you go. Well, your cheese, you’re prolific looking at your, you write a lot?

Jasmine Bina 17:42
Yeah, it’s it’s definitely if I could just write I probably would, but I cannot. I can’t really write unless I’m doing the work behind the writing. So it’s very symbiotic, you know, doing the client work and doing the writing. Every clients, we’re lucky, we have clients that push us and we I don’t think we’ve ever had a client where we haven’t like slightly iterated our price process at least a little bit. And then that just makes me think of things a little bit differently. And it always inspires a piece.

Adam Pierno 18:13
Well, you brought up the idea of, you know, trusting the framework. And I thought, Well, yeah, you always start with the framework, but the framework always gets broken. I mean, any, any. Anytime you create a process, the first thing into the process almost always bends it or breaks it.

Jasmine Bina 18:30
That’s true. It’s almost like you’re building a ledge that you’re going to jump off of, and you know, it’ll just crumble beneath your feet as you’re, you know, airborne.

Adam Pierno 18:42
Yeah. And everybody understands, once, once you’re halfway out on the ledge, you say, Oh, that’s right, I’m gonna fall off of this thing. Hopefully.

Jasmine Bina 18:52
It does feel like that.

Adam Pierno 18:53
Yeah, very often. Let’s talk about vulnerability. Now in the in the Airbnb, or the Uber examples, there’s a literal vulnerability or going into someone’s home. But let’s let’s take it to another type of brand, just to just to make it a little bit more abstract and brand related, little less than literal, like sure, you know, like a regular e commerce brand, or like, Dollar Shave Club or something. What does vulnerability mean, from a consumer point of view as they’re engaging with the brand?

Jasmine Bina 19:31
Yeah, um, so the one example I can think of, and there’s another, maybe more little literal one, that would be interesting to it. So the ordinary, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with them, they’re, they’re a beauty brand. And they have a lot of different skincare products, their philosophy was that they were going to just sell the active ingredients in most common skincare lines. So instead of buying like a night cream, you’re buying retinol, or buying like a under I wrinkle cream, you were buying, reserve a troll or something, you were, I don’t know if that’s how you pronounce it, but you were just buying the active ingredient, they’re stripping down, and kind of demystifying what skincare could be because there’s so many active ingredients, and you kind of just trust it like, you know, a title or a quarterly or Sunday Riley, they’re going to they’re going to come up with a concoction that has all the right elements and the right formulations to make you look fantastic or feel great. What they did was, so they sell everything in identical bottles at the identical sizes. And they don’t tell you necessarily what it does, they tell you the formulation that’s inside of it, they tell you the pH levels, they tell you what you can mix it with and what you can’t mix it with, but they don’t tell you at all, what your regimen should look like, or what you can actually combine with with something else. Or I think they started telling you how much of each thing that you can use. The whole point of it was, it looked more like a chemist set, right? It looks like a beauty kit. So you literally had to learn about these things. And there were huge like Facebook communities and like private groups that popped up with thousands of girls, you know, sharing their regimens, sharing their knowledge, their research, you know, how they found a way to kind of like create some the network for their skin type and the combinations. And, you know, these were people that were already kind of beauty junkies, but now they were like information junkies. And, and you you had to make yourself a skincare expert in order to use this product properly. And there’s a vulnerability there because there’s risk involved, it’s a it’s a time investment, it’s a money investment, you could possibly hurt your skin if you don’t. Right. And, or you could be wasting your time if you don’t combine things in the right way either. And, you know, the risk was here, huge, but the reward was huge, too, because now all of a sudden, you’re not using these beauty products as a consumer, you’re using them as an expert. You I mean, when I was when I figured out my ordinary regimen. And I had had conversations with girls in these groups and came to understand like the world that lived outside of the product. I felt like who needs a dermatologist, you know, I don’t know who needs to trust the some bs story that a brand is telling me about, you know, some chemical compound they found in the grapevines of wherever I felt like I was empowered, and I was much more discerning, and I had a very, I put a different value on the product. That’s a huge reward when you and that’s that’s a, that’s a less obvious vulnerability, but a very profound one. If you think about it, and I can tell you from experience, it was for me

Adam Pierno 22:53
to the stories about Snapchat, making their product difficult to figure out. So that felt like they were in control or had a secret once they, once they learned it, and they could show somebody else.

Jasmine Bina 23:06
Yeah, 100% you’re trying to figure out like seeing a filter that somebody had, or some sort of feature and like trying to figure out where the hell it was in the US. So you can use it yourself. Yeah, that’s 100% true. And you know, there’s also I think the cool factor of finding those things early and cool is, I might write a piece on the idea of what cool is because I’d like to deconstruct what makes something cool. Because it’s it’s hard to figure out really, although people have tried,

Adam Pierno 23:31
let’s do it, man, I’ll help you. You know, I’m doing research right now on experience when meaningful experiences it’s something something I’m working on. And the the idea, you know, UX has become a not a buzzword, but you know, just has become a boilerplate, standardized term. when you really think about it. I’m not sure everybody knows how to define UX. I think there are definitions for it. But in the case of the cosmetics brand you just mentioned, the UX goes beyond whatever their digital presence looks like. I mean, it’s the it’s the navigation of figuring that out. It’s the relationship you built with the community, it is opening the first jar you got, and yeah, smelling that smell and say, Whoa, I don’t think I’m scared or I feel good about this.

Jasmine Bina 24:22
Right now. You’re absolutely right UX. Depending on how you want to engineer your brand, it can go to really, really interesting places that you may not have considered it before.

Adam Pierno 24:32
How do you think about UX as you’re working on brands? And nevermind UX, but how do you think about experience as a, as a medium for brand or as a layer?

Jasmine Bina 24:44
It’s definitely a very critical layer. But it’s it’s a layer. And I mean, that in the UX sense, maybe not so much experience that, I think you really, I firmly believe and this is not just because I do this for a living, I firmly believe that you start with the brand and you build a business on top of that it’s not the other way around. And UX is just an extension of brands, I think people think UX can do remarkable things. And it can’t, and UX can be a little it can, it can throw you off the scent a little bit. I think sometimes people use UX to really get rid of a lot of friction in the user experience. And that makes sense, right? You want to have a frictionless checkout page, you want to be able to customize your shoes easily and quickly on the website win or whatever it is. And those are all UX problems are commonly solved. But you know, UX, if it is always about making the experience easier, you’re not really inviting vulnerability in any way. And I don’t I don’t even know that you could do it through UX. And I might be going off on a tangent here, so forgive me, but um, yeah, I was thinking about this, you know, before this conversation, can you can a brand be based on on UX? Can you communicate a brand fully through UX, because I’ve had clients think that as well in the past, and my gut reaction has always been no, but if you if you dig into it, let’s look at like a really big problem. Or like a really big thing, it’s something I’ve been thinking about lately is the concept of wellness or self care. That is a remarkable concept. It’s a really fascinating term that has just permeated every industry. And I think it’s a really long way to go. But look at what it’s done. It’s it’s turned the sex care or sex toy industry on its head, now you can find sex toys at CVS, and Walmart, because they’re being branded as self care products for wellness products. CBD and marijuana is going through a renaissance because it’s being branded as self care or beauty, even, you know, beauty is being rebranded as self care. So it’s really about an experience and not so much about, you know, getting rid of your wrinkles. And these are things that before would sound like sex, drugs, vanity, but now they’re self care, they’re not any of those things. And it gives people permission to, to engage with them, without whatever shame or biases or baggage usually comes with those with those stories or whatever. And, you know, the that that words did that the semantics of that branding, did that mean, could a UX do something like that? I don’t, I don’t think so. And that’s the difference.

Adam Pierno 27:32
Well, you know, the trend, you’ve made a good point about cutting out friction in UX and trying to make it as seamless as possible, which I’ve just seen the research that says, the more seamless it is, the more forgettable the experiences, for building a brand is, is terrible. So you have to be intentional about where do you want to stop people in the process to make them think without making them feel that they’ve been corralled or bottlenecks in our task done. It’s it’s just choosing where do you want to put the focus of their time?

Jasmine Bina 28:03
Yes, absolutely. You know, we’re even working with a client right now that has a huge platform. And, you know, we did a lot of user interviews for them, we realized that, you know, the user interviews for the first time, and this was just in the course of our research, it was the first time that their users that we spoke to, you had a chance to really reflect on what the platform had done for them. And it brought them to a place of really appreciating the product. But that that moment of pause in the UX didn’t exist, there was no place to stop and say, Wow, look at look at what this product has done. For me Look at how far I’ve come because of this product, who I’ve become because of this product. And probably because they they engineered it out to to make it as Super seamless experience. But sometimes to your point, you know, forcing people to stop forcing them to, to feel a little friction can also cause them to appreciate what the effects finances in the first place.

Adam Pierno 29:01
Right. And in in a case where you don’t do that you’re only setting yourself up for either a, it works flawlessly, and they move through seamlessly and forget. I can’t remember their password or anything. Right? If you use last password, or any of those things, all of a sudden, it’s like, I don’t remember anything about that. I push a button and it’s all right. For the other side, which could be it normally works seamlessly. But this time it stopped at phase three. And now I’m pissed and I’m watching the spinning wheel. Figure out, figure out why I’m frustrated from a service that has, you know, been perfect 20 times in a row in this 21st time. I’m shaking my fast.

Jasmine Bina 29:40
Yeah, well, again, because if your UX is your brand, then where do people? What do people fall on? When that UX fails? There’s nothing else that’s it? You know, it’s at one point that they rest their entire relationship on, and then you broke it.

Adam Pierno 29:54
Yeah. And then I guess going back to the question about being vulnerable. You don’t want to make someone vulgar, well vulnerable about the success or failure of the thing they’re buying. So if it’s Max, and the vulnerability is, is this thing going to work?

Jasmine Bina 30:11
Yeah. And that’s absolutely not the kind of vulnerability we’re talking about. I mean, I think that’s just basic functionality. I wouldn’t even call that vulnerability. You’re totally right. That’s the kind you want us to

Adam Pierno 30:22
want people to come out the other side having feeling like they’re in control or having learned something or having achieved something a higher order benefit that’s beyond you know, accomplishing the task.

Jasmine Bina 30:35
Absolutely. Yeah, totally agree.

Adam Pierno 30:38
Alright, well, this was a fantastic talk. Jasmine, I really appreciate you making time on a lovely Tuesday evening.

Jasmine Bina 30:53
No my pleasure. This was good it went by really fast. It flew by

Adam Pierno 30:57
Listen, you you have a return visit anytime you want. You’re invited to come back on next time you write an article – every three days. So I’m sure that you’ll have.

Jasmine Bina 31:05
I would love to because you know, I had great examples I didn’t get to use in this one. So I’ll put them to use next time.

Adam Pierno 31:11
You got it. Let’s set it up.

Jasmine Bina 31:13
Okay, thank you so much, Adam. I really enjoyed this. Hey, my pleasure.

Adam Pierno 31:16
Hey, where can people find you online.

Jasmine Bina 31:18
And you can find me at our website, I’m also on medium where I publish everything. All of our best thinking, I don’t believe that our ideas are a processes or IP. We put everything out there and have a good community of people that are talking about these ideas. And if you’re interested in being a part of that, check me out there. I’m also on Twitter, and Instagram. Triple jas, Triple J-A-S is my handle for pretty much everything. And yeah, come talk to me.

Adam Pierno 31:53
Awesome. Thank you again. I do appreciate it.

Jasmine Bina 31:56
Awesome. Sounds good. Bye.

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